OK--sorry to stir the pot...But I need to say a couple of things out loud.
The combo of Christians and Nationalism nauseates me. I am thankful for America. I'm grateful for the freedom we have here. I'm thankful for and pray for our leaders. But...I can't stand how many evangelical Christians use Jesus in politics.
Now, the irony in this is that I am a Christian and I am about to use Jesus to talk about my ways of thinking. I find that there's a growing tension in me regarding many in our country who show hatred towards other nations and sing songs like "God Bless America" with an attitude that almost suggests America is the only country God loves.
Tim had some great things to say Sunday about courage and the ways we see Jesus showing courage. He could have spent his time speaking out against the Godless Roman government and authorities. He could have made it his mission to challenge their authority. But it appears he was more concerned with the religious leaders and the way they were oppressing people and turning the love of God into regulations and laws.
I remember a Sunday when we went through a worship period at church where people were marginally engaged until someone had the veterans stand. There was a standing ovation. I know, I know. I'm on thin ice here. And, I am not saying, by any stretch of the imagination, that those men and women don't deserve respect. However, doesn't anyone else find it strange that we can become so swept up in emotion over a soldier and can't muster even an "amen" for what God means to us?
I know the 4th of July is coming. I know it's a fun celebration. But, I would love for Christians especially to be leading the way in preaching and living out love for our "enemies". What would that look like? What would the world say about Christians then? What if we tried love at all costs? Ridiculous? Yep. But, what if Jesus had chosen to treat us as we deserved as enemies to his holiness?
Tuesday, June 27, 2006
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37 comments:
I have to "AMEN!" everything you've said!!! I'm also tired of people who will turn a blind eye to whatever other bad stuff a politician is doing as long as he (or she) votes to ban gay marriage or is anti-abortion, because he (or she) is the "Christian choice". Sorry, but I had to vent a little. I could go on, but it would get ugly!!!
Amen and amen to your post and to all the comments!!! It is reassuring to know that there are others out there who feel the same way.
Hey, I will be in Nashville this next couple of days. I fly out tomorrow morning.
Good thing I didn't get you this tshirt for 4th of July then...
Blech, blech, and patooie on this most heinous of subjects!!!
And blessings on the top of your sweet curly little head for having the temerity of spirit to spew forth in a fairly well crafted manner!
It is SO encouraging to read your thoughts and these comments. I especially am totally in line with what Amy is writing.
Unfortunately, from the viewing on this side of The Pond, this group you speak of has given a black eye to how Christians here view American Christians as a whole. So sad. Until my British friends actually go to the USA and closely interact with a real group of American Christians, they are wary of the brothers and sisters in America and would much prefer to stay on this side of the cultural divide.
There are still American Christians who come to 'fellowship' with the church folk here, but they are, well, just so embarrassing. The other day one of our friends was telling us how a guy from Dallas, TX was 'teaching' them about how free Americans were, and had the audacity to tell my friends at their dinner table that we do not live in a free, democratic society here in the UK. Only in America has democracy flourished correctly enough to allow for true growth in Christ. He then posited that perhaps that was the reason for the serious decline in church attendance in the UK. I had to clean up after he left and I still feel I haven't been able to apologise enough!
We love getting to be with my folks, but that means we have to travel to West Texas, and as soon as the Christian prairie people hear John’s London accent, they want to glory in George W. They ignore the fact there are British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan (the son of a close friend from church is the commander of 3rd Para just deployed to Helmand, where I used to live). There are so many situations where I wished my accent were not so American. It can be a real hindrance. To be fair, it can also be a positive, and I just have to know God will guide me accordingly towards loving, honest relationships.
Well, you pushed a button and sorry my restraint went out the window. (I so admire Amy!) I do not get to converse daily with fellow Americans, so the only encouragement I get is through reading American blogs (none of my British friends know about blogging and have not bothered to check mine out to see what it’s all about – it’s more of an American pastime).
I will be so glad when we are all in Heaven and there are no national borders or cultural attitudes to block the doors to the throne room!
Brandon,
I agree, there is definitely a "growing tension" surrounding this topic of nationalism in the States. I feel we are being called now to choose our allegiance, either to the Kingdom of God as primary, or to the kingdoms of this world as primary. I pray we choose wisely and with mercy and grace toward those who are confused between the two.
-Russ
I am more in line with what you say than you will think after you read my question. But I hear folks say "hatred" in many contexts and I am not always sure that I know what they mean when they use it. (Often it seems that "hatred" means "a mindset that does not agree with me.") So when you say "show hatred to other nations" what displays of hatred are you referring to? Again, let me be clear - I am NOT challenging what you are saying, best I can tell. I am asking for more clarity/definition/context about the topic (even though I agree with McLaren that sometimes "clarity is overrated"). Thanks, Brandon.
Also - I share your frustration regarding how blithely we call can move through a "worship" time without mustering anything significant in the way of praise and gratitude to God. Our view of things (most definitely including myself) is so often so narrow and selfish...
Michael
Amy, Julie, Beaner,
Let's all get those T-shirts Phil mentioned and go visit Deb!
I love you BST and you know where I stand on all this...North of the border!
"O Cananda, my home and native land!"
Just saw a story in the Chicago Tribune this morning about a survey: The U.S. is the most patriotic country on earth. Well, duh. Replace the word "patriotic" with "jingoistic" or "nationalistic," and you've got it.
I wish more American Christians realized that God saves individuals through Christ. The nations will be judged!
Stephen, you are still a dear and a handsome dev-... uh, DAH-ling!
You guys come on over, and bring me and John a couple of those T-shirts Phil has spotted. We can wear them at a garden party...in the fog!
;)
Oh, and about that T-shirt -- can I have mine in ash, please (it could come in handy for Lent season next year). THANKS!
I used to be an Episcopalian. The Episcopal Church has always seen itself as sort of the de facto national church of the U.S. (The "National Cathedral," you will recall, is an Episcopal church.)
They have some historical right to that claim. I mean, something like 2/3 of the signers of the Constitution were Episcopalians.
There were some things that always bugged me. For instance, the American flag was always in the church. One church I went to used it in our openning procession. Also, we had a liturgical calender, a calender of holy days. Thanksgiving and the Fourth of July were on that calender, and there are special public services in many Episcopal churches on those days.
It always bugged me because I believe we are called to be a seperate people. And while I am very grateful to live in the U.S., and I gladly pay my taxes and vote and everything, the Kingdom of God is my home. And I think that this is the only "nation" the Church should be seeking to advance.
hmmm...Interesting reading the responses. Can anybody say "post-modern"?
Could it be that the reason Christians (especially the 45-older group) have such an emotional response to patriotism and the institution of country is b/c they find in it the sense of solidarity (especially in the face of a unifying threat) and community that they have not/do not find in the Church? Could it be that the reason they haven't found that sense is b/c in the past the Church has made the unifying threat the Baptists? Or insrtruments? And community means eleatism where at least one day a week for an hour we get it right (despite what we look like the rest of the week). Those things aren't anything to grab onto. Our sons and daugthers being beheaded is. I think people look for a sense of belonging, they want something to stand up for...and in the absence of the right things, they will fill in the wrong ones.
In the final analysis, people are responsible for their own understanding of community and what the Church is and what it's role is as it pertains to patriotism...But I do think many of us as modern, western Christians have lost a sense of narative...That we are not mere Americans on a journey through culture as we take with us our Christian faith....But we are the children of the living God-our identity is 100% wrapped up in him. We are his story. He is OUR story. Everything else is just window dressing.
This is a deeply confusing area for many people and has been for many generations.
The 1st real work on conscientious objection? The only minister reconized and respected by Governor Andrew Johnson b/c of his refusal to take either side during the Civil War? That's right....David Lipscomb.
Bc
About a year ago, my newspaper carrier (an older guy) showed up on my doorstep to collect. I guess since he knows I'm a minister's wife and a newspaper columnist, he launched into a tirade about how God will not bless our country unless it turns back to him. I kept up the "uh-huh" thing, hoping he would leave soon, when he mentioned that after all, America is God's chosen nation. "No, it's not," I said. "Israel is."
He just stared at me.
Yesterday I planned our together worship time for Sunday, and today I completed most of our PowerPoint. I didn't remember July 4 was on the horizon until I read your comments. I'm so glad that's not a big issue for our little church out west... although we did have one couple leave because we wouldn't fly the flag. Hmmm...
It sounds to me like several issues have become mixed together and the backlash is that somehow patriotism and Christianity don't mix. I would have to disagree about that. But I do agree that:
1) Christians of all nationalities should be looking for ways to represent Jesus to the world around them (history demonstrates that Christians throughout the centuries have rarely managed to get this one right!)
2) Americans in particular have a great responsibility to use our great resources to benefit countries that are less fortunate
3) While I believe Christians have a duty to affect government in Godly ways (vote!) I have issues with the people who use Christianity to force their political agenda.
But does this mean that it's inappropriate to sing "God Bless America" in worship, or corporately remember the fact that, despite all the attempts at rewriting history, America was founded by many God-fearing men who honored him in the best ways they knew how?
I understand how people from other countries would be offended by the in-your-face nationalism shown by well-meaning but ignorant American Christians. Americans do not have a monopoly on God's love or blessings. But I do feel there's a place to honor God in assembly because of the many blessings he has given our country. I believe the reason America still experiences his grace and blessing to the degree that we do is because of the way our forefathers honored God and it is appropriate to remember this as a church fellowship.
Sandy, do you believe God has blessed America to the exclusion of other countries or in a way special and different from other countries? Do you believe that other countries that were founded by "Christian" leaders (Liberia, for example) are not as faithful to God as America is, and therefore don't get the same "blessings" America does?
Just curious about what you're thinking. Thanks.
Hey, Babe,
Looks like you hit some buttons. I must admit that I get as blubbery as the next person when the flag is raised or when the national anthem or taps is played. After all, I spent 25 years in school watching the flag go up the flag pole! Teaching at Dyess made me even more aware of my patriotic bent. I cried through the I Love Amereican programs at Dyess featuring GW (that's George Washington,)Abraham Lincoln and the Statue of Liberty because they were so well done by Carolyn Newman and company and because the kids were absorbing the emotion left out of the history books. I don't mind saying it--I am proud to be an American. It is here that a girl from a poor carpenter's family could become a university professor. It is here that a girl who grew up using an outhouse could a afford a house with two bathrooms. It is here that a girl who once wore only hand-me-downs can afford to shop at Dillard's. It is here that a girl whose first job paid 12 cents an hour can afford a comfortable retirement. It is here that a girl who was the first one to go to college in her ancestral family could afford to send her son to college as well.
While I too decry the outrageous use of religion by those who have missed spiritual formation 101, I am also aware that God has blessed this nation above all others in the world. That means we have a much bigger responsibility to all others. (Which by the way, we are not meeting.)When people choose to drive $75,000 cars and build 1 million dollar houses rather than help the homeless, the uneducated, and the hungry and ill--they are spitting on their blessings and most certainly incurring the wrath of God, IMHO.
So, I will continue to cry at patriotic celebrations and to praise God with raised hands and tears as well. So there--
Mom
Nice post!
b blessed
russ
Bummer. Guess I have to revise our plan for worship on Sunday...but that descant for "Battle Hymn of the Republic" is SO purty!!! :-)
And while we're on the subject - how can the vast majority of Christians in America complain about high taxes and fight to protect their piece of the pie and then go to church on Sunday to claim membership in an organization that started like this -
Acts 2:44-45
All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.
Sounds like your basic Communist society to me...
Phil,
No, I didn't say anything to the effect that "God has blessed America to the exclusion of other countries" or that other countries are not as faithful. Those things aren't for me to judge, and in fact, one could probably make a convincing argument that America is not a "faithful" country, generally speaking. And God certainly isn't exclusive with his outpouring of blessings.
However, it seems obvious to me that America has been abundantly blessed in many different ways. I choose to give God credit for these blessings and for our Christian heritage. I believe it is appropriate for people of any nationality to remember God's blessings to their country in the assembly of the church body.
Classic redistribution of wealth...Socialist..not communist...unless you count Jesus as dictator...or maybe Paul...Yeah, Paul the Dictator...
;)
bc
"God Bless America" is simply a song to request God's guiding hand on our nation. And I believe all of us believe that the USA absolutely needs God's blessing and guidance.
Yes, I agree it's a shame when someone is moved by a patriotic sentiment, but can't be moved an inch by the love of Christ. But could it be that someone might be drawn to Christ through their love of country and seeing someone (like Christian Americans) give God credit for the good that happens here?
It's also a shame when someone is moved by seeing a new baby, but doesn't believe that this new little being is a gift from God. But haven't we all heard stories of someone who came to Christ after witnessing the love of a child.
I looked up the word patriot. It just means one who loves, supports and defends his country. Unless you loved your country more than God, how could that be a bad thing?
Remember that one can even love their children more than they love Christ!
And if you really want to get down to brass tacks about "redistribution of wealth", all the great big elaborate churches filled with fancy equipment might have to go. I've heard of many non-Christians who are turned off from Christianity because of what the church members think is important. A fancy building, elaborate musical presentations, high tech computer equipment, etc. While I am of the mind that things like that can be a tool in leading someone to Christ, it could actually be a valid point.
When someone asks the questions, "Why isn't the church doing more to help the poor, the needy, the hungry? Do you really think a poor, dirty, person will be attracted to a nice building filled with the latest in worship technology and expensive cars parked out front? Couldn't the church give more to the poor, the needy and the forgotten if you did away with all that?"
We can begin to love our "churches" more than we love Christ. We can also begin to love our "church experience" more than we love Christ. And if we aren't real careful, we can begin loving the "act of worship" more than we love Christ.
I guess my point is that we all have to be very careful. Satan can and will use anything available to tempt us to turn from God, even our love our country, children, worship, etc.
Or we can turn it around and use it as a tool against Satan!
Kelley's right...it's not just patriotism or an unhealthy sense of nationalism that can distract us. However, there are other blog entires for those rants. This one is specifically about nationalism. I never said to throw out any specific song--I only commented on the way some sing it.(Although, I would personally be in favor of doing without it...not because I don't want God to bless us, only because it's convoluted with lots of unhealthy emotions in my opinion.)
I completely agree with you on the buildings, technology, etc. There's a growing tension there too. I know that may come as a surprise to some, but it's true.
And..the way I meant "hatred" was treating people in a way that does not reflect the love of Jesus...in fact many times using the name of Jesus or the banner of Christianity for killing. It's nothing new, people. We've been doing it for centuries.
I'm not going Dixie Chicks on you here. Just expressing some tensions inside me. Like I said...thin ice. But I think it's something we should think about.
Dwiggy said - "Sounds like your basic Communist society to me..."
Uhhh, no.
A Communist society REQUIRES such behavior and TAKES whatever it pleases. The disciples OFFERED and GAVE. That's a pretty big difference, right?
Kerry,
Might be something else we agree on. I'm broken. I'm thankful for the hope of resoration in Jesus. And...agreeing with me is overrated and definitely not required for reading this blog.
Peace-
B
Dwiggy's wife here.....I don't think he really meant Communist. We're totally NOT Red in this house!!! I think what he probably meant is more along the lines of living in a Commune - where we all could share our possessions instead of wasting $ on individual stuff for ourselves. Dwight's also a big proponent on wanting to unify smaller churches that each have big buildings that aren't filled to save $ on a mortgage, etc. Why not share a church building? BST - I think you guys used to do that w/your old building, right? Anyway....just have to defend my man! ;)
I've never commented here before, but this post made want to share the lyrics to a song I recently read. I found this in a book by Marcus Borg, titled "The Heart of Christianity." The song is titled,"This Is My Song."
"This is my song, o God of all the nations,
A song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is:
Here are my hopes, My dreams, my holy shrine;
But other hearts in other other lands are beating
With hopes and dreams as true as mine.
My country's skies are bluer than the ocean
And sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
But other lands have sunlight, too, and clover,
And skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, O God of all nations,
A song of peace for their land and for mine."
This is sung to the melody of Sibelius's "Finlandis."
Sue Evans, Bowie, MD
Beaner,
I hope that what I said did not come across as an attack, and certainly not a personal attack. If that was the case, I deeply apologize.
And for the record - I agree completely that we tend to spend WAY too much on ourselves and our comfort/entertainment ("my kingdom" things), when we could/should be spending the money (and ourselves) on Kingdom things.
Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood, I don't think technology aides are a bad thing. In fact, they actually help me stay focused during worship. But it's not the case with EVERYONE.
I hope that someone who breezes through this blog will see the point that ANYTHING (even really good, honest,spiritual and honorable things) can take our focus off Christ.
Michael's comment about hatred was so true. We sometimes want to say that someone has "hatred in their hearts" if they disagree with us. To discuss what we disagree on is a healthy mental excercise to make us think. But just because some of us disagree doesn't mean we hate those that oppose our view.
THAT'S WHAT MAKES AMERICA A GREAT PLACE! And why I don't think it's a bad thing to include national patriotism from time to time during our worship times as long as it's within the correct context and direction (pointed up!). And why songs that plead for God's guidance for this country are not offensive to me.
Thanks Brandon for opening yourself up. Discussion is a good thing when it leads to seeking, introspection and prayerful meditation. God will always be praised in that kind of environment.
Michael - I just didn't want him to get blacklisted - JK! Can you tell we've seen "Good Night and Good Luck"?
Anyway......I don't think we HAVE to do the whole commune thing like in Acts, but we should definately be sharing what we have with others. Just sometimes I wish I could have a community meal time with my "family" every night - like in college when everyone met in the dorm cafeteria & shared & laughed together. I just like the idea of a commune probably better than actually living in one!
Thanks for that link. (It's just so many shades of wrong!)
Aha, kerryhale, you hail from the Memphis area. I've been to one of those 4th of July extravaganzas to which you referred earlier. It is pretty unbelievable. (Went, at the invitation of one of my students, to be nice.)
Now, the Christmas one is wonderful, or at least it was the one time I went -- 1997. (Got free tickets to it, too.)
So, Brandon, how many songs including the word "America" will be sung at Otter Creek Sunday?!? Don't know what our church here will do. But we'll soon see.
Brandon, the pot is not only stirred. It is boiled and simmered and now that this post has a nice aroma of bug spray and a touch of gunpowder, I think we're finally ready to celebrate the 4th in rousing style! :-)
Thanks for providing a place to vent and cajole and enjoy my Brothers and Sisters from all over this fine country we call home.
Clarissa...to answer your question, ZERO. But, you'll be glad to know we'll be singing lots of songs about Jesus. :)
Hey Brandon, I'm doing some catching-up blog reading here. BTW - the Harrill's say "Hello!". I read through maybe half the comments. I think you know that I agree with you here but I just wanted to say one thing.
You mentioned the response to having those who serve/have served in the military stand up in church and the standing ovation, show of support and emotion that it gained. While I agree that church may not be the most appropriate place for that I must say that whenever the opportunity arises to honor veterens or those currently serving I will show respect and support, I will stand and clap whether it is in a church building, a stadium or the in the grocery store! These are people that have sacrificed more than I ever will. I do not hold them up as being more important than Jesus, but I do respect them, the choices they've made, and the sacrifices they've made.
B, I'm trying to understand what you meant by what you said. May I reflect?
It bugs you when you sense our ALLEGIANCE to America far surpasses our allegiance and passion for God. It saddens you to see "where your (my/Christ's) church is at" vs. "where you think we should be." And finally, what would it look to love like Jesus?
Am I hearing you correctly? If so, then I empathize with you. That is discouraging. It's difficult to be working so hard to nurture a responsive heart to God--and yet see people get so vocal about a lesser priority. Essentially, these things boil down to different ways we miss loving like Jesus.
Our allegiances are a reflection of our true love. Our passions reveal where our emotions make their home. Our blind insensitivities to other cultures seeking after Christ unmask our foolish pride. It's enough to make us want to . . . wait for it . . . love like Jesus.
This week I was grateful for a young man in the military who, for the first time in his life, spoke publicly of his gratitude for how the men & women in our armed forces helped deepen his understanding and appreciation for the sacrifices Christ made for us, his enemies. It was a beautiful moment to see God use a cultural reality to deepen our love for Christ. Thank you Lord for my friends Charles & Brandon who are helping me love like Jesus.
YES! Great points, Ben!
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